University of Auckland Council Meeting 2025-03-17

Mon Mar 17 2025 13:00:00 GMT+1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time)

Transcript

Note: transcription and dioarization are automated and may contain errors.

00:00 Speaker 1: The chat is not available to the public.

00:05 Speaker 1: We've been told, right? We've done what we can to get with it.

00:11 Speaker 1: We're live.

00:12 Speaker 1: We are live? Right.

00:14 Speaker 1: Nau mai, haere mai, piki mai, ki tēne hui. Welcome everybody, I welcome the public to part A of the Council meeting and I apologise for the delay in the start of the meeting.

00:30 Speaker 1: We started with a kārakiia at the beginning of the briefing, so we won't do that. Do we have any apologies? I believe we have a complete - everybody from the council is here, so we have no apologies.

00:46 Speaker 1: I'd like to - Can we just check - are we just checking that the meeting is up? I can just see meeting 27 button, which is the name of the I can't see anything else. My sound is off so I can't.

01:05 Sorry.

01:08 Speaker 2: We might have to put that camera on.

01:14 Speaker 1: Sorry we're just making sure that we do in fact have the public meeting open.

01:30 Speaker 1: I'm just refreshing the page, I'll try again.

01:34 Speaker 1: Yes, it's fine. Okay, alright, we are in a public meeting, good, thank you very much. Okay, alright, so could I ask, just draw everybody's attention to the conflicts of interest policy and ask if anybody has any conflicts to declare in respect of matters that are being dealt with today?

02:03 Speaker 2: Did you want me to raise those in Part B?

02:08 Speaker 1: Any conflicts you have for the entire meeting should be raised now?

02:13 Speaker 2: It's in relation to the leases with Melanesian Mission Trust Board and my conflict as a funding officer for the Pacific Island Law Students Association. I've been in talks with the Melanesian Mission Trust Board

02:31 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Gemma?

02:34 Speaker 3: And just noting that my brother works for Hayden and Rollett.

02:40 Great.

02:42 Speaker 1: Thank you.

02:46 Speaker 1: All right. Okay. So I'll move that those disclosures be noted. I don't, looking at those, I don't see any need for us to disqualify either of those people from the conversation.

03:05 Speaker 1: To get to the item, we can discuss that more specifically. So in the meantime, I will move those disclosures be noted and the action taken be endorsed. Julia told me, could I ask you to second that, please?

03:22 Speaker 1: Thank you very much.

03:24 Speaker 1: Okay, so now we have and you will see in the agenda a fabulously long list of the people who are either at the university, with the university, associated with the university, alumni of the university, who were recognised in the New Year's honours list and just a fabulous list of people there. And the Vice -Chancellor and I have written to each of these people to congratulate them and received A, so moving to the council meetings, we have the draft minutes of part A, of those minutes and I'll just ask if anybody has any comments on the minutes of part A of the council meeting.

04:43 Speaker 1: Yes Julia.

04:46 Yes

04:47 Speaker 4: I've got two comments the first is that Gemma and I didn't declare a conflict of interest so it shows that all council members declared a conflict of interest.

04:57 Speaker 4: Gemma and I and I believe Dawn but I don't know for sure don't receive fees for being around the council table so that's the first point oh yes yeah good point um and the second issue and I'm sorry to raise this again I have raised it a number of times um and it I'm really sorry Cecilia it does put you in a bit of an awkward position but um and it concerns the October meeting uh when we reappointed the alumnus So it's recorded that I raised concerns about us not following section 11 of the council appointments procedure so that's section 11 not section 18 but it wasn't that I raised concerns about us not following it I said that we didn't follow it and that was a meeting I'm sorry I must be in the wrong minutes can you point me to where you are in

05:59 Speaker 1: the minutes this This is part of... Diligent page nine. Diligent page nine. Okay. Oh,

06:04 Speaker 4: yeah. Okay. Right. Okay. So yes, yes. Right. We were reappointing the alumnus member. Right. And the procedure to follow is section 11 of the council appointments procedure. And that was on Zoom meeting. So it's actually recorded and you can watch it online. And it's quite clear when you watch it. I'm a person with the right idea but the wrong procedure.

06:29 Speaker 4: So section 11 of the council appointments procedure says that the vice chancellors review and executive remuneration committee when a member comes up for appointment is to advise council on the merits of running an expression of interest or not and then council is to decide whether or not it runs that expression of interest but when you look at those at the recording we don't receive any advice and we don't don't make the decision not to run an EOI. So what I was raising in December is that the minutes of October showed that we followed Section 11 when we in fact didn't. And I think that does leave the university in a little bit of an awkward situation because we are risk adverse when it comes to the governance strategy and I think it means, you know, if we haven't followed an appointments procedure that we are open to challenges or to the perception that we're not acting with integrity. So my suggestion would be that we redo that appointments process. And, you know, if we were going to be really robust, maybe use the more robust EOI process. But that's not my decision to make. That's Council's decision.

07:54 Speaker 1: Okay, well, my suggestion with that would be that, as you say, because it's a matter for the VCRC, that that should go back to the VCRC to decide.

08:09 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, my suggestion would be that it go back to the VCRC and the VCRC can decide what to do about the process. Because there is also, yeah, and as you say, it's not really for me to say. I might turn over to I don't know whether there is

08:28 a...

08:32 Speaker 5: I'm thinking of off my head, Cecilia. So sorry, Julia, not to necessarily disagree with you, but I don't have the statute in front of me. I appreciate you've read it, but I guess you're expressing your opinion that in your view it's clear that we did not. But look, as I say, Julia, I have no reason to disagree or not agree. I just don't have the language in front of me.

08:55 Speaker 5: Why don't we just take note that you had... Yes, I'm happy if you just note that... You did not, but you expressed the view that the process... In her opinion, the process was not followed under Section 11 rather than Section 18. And then let's take an action point to go away and review that. And if we need to tidy things up procedurally, we should do that.

09:18 And

09:19 Speaker 4: we should also correct the minutes for the October meeting, which still show we followed the process.

09:25 Speaker 5: Adrienne, do you have any comments? So

09:30 Speaker 6: the difficulty for Wendy and me is that we're not at the VCRC meeting, so we can't really provide any assurance that procedures were followed or not. So it will be a matter for VCRC to consider. It's not about what happened

09:48 Speaker 4: in the VCRC, I always get that wrong, because we are told and I have no reason to disbelieve them that they did decide to make provide advice to council but the fact is that council didn't receive that advice will make a decision that's my point.

10:06 So

10:07 Speaker 1: let's just you know I think we understand we understand your point Julia I think that as you say it's not really for me to say but I think Kathy's suggestion is a good one that we that you have expressed your view that the process was not followed and that we will refer it back to the VCRC to decide what to do and they can come to the next council meeting and advise as to what they would propose to do. Okay?

10:39 Speaker 1: And yeah, I think I realise I have...

10:44 Speaker 1: they gave them to me, sorry. Okay. All right, okay. Now that was...

10:54 Speaker 1: Did you say you had two things Julia or was that both things? Oh no, no, you covered the first

11:01 Speaker 2: one.

11:02 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. No, the disclosure of interest got that one and then the second one. Yep, no, appreciate that. Thank you. Are there any further comments on the minutes?

11:18 Speaker 1: All right, then I will move that the minutes as amended as discussed be taken as read and confirmed and I will ask Kathy to Kathy Quinn to second those minutes. Thank you very much. And I'll just ask if there is anybody when I call for a seconder I'll then also call for a vote. Is there anybody I ask everybody to vote please or if the probably it's easier right yes that's right just hands up please if you confirming that motion thank you very much right good anybody against that motion no i'm not seeing any hands right good thank you very much okay and then um yeah and then this is the matters arising obviously deals with what uh julia has raised and uh we will that that will go back to the PCRC.

12:25 Speaker 1: Okay.

12:26 Speaker 1: Now we are on to the Vice Chancellor's report. I will invite the Vice Chancellor to speak to her report.

12:37 Sure,

12:38 Speaker 7: thank you, Chancellor. And as always, I'll take the report as read. As you know, despite capturing a huge amount of activity and engagements for the first quarter of the year, the report is slightly out of date.

12:54 Speaker 7: So I'll supplement it with some of the recent meetings I've had with Minister Retty, some of the discussions through the University's New Zealand Vice Chancellors Group and a range of other engagements across ENZ and with the University Advisory Group.

13:11 Speaker 7: So I'll start with just an acknowledgement that given the Cabinet reshuffle, which is still shaking down actually, we've had a conversation with Minister Stamford now in her role as well as immigration, which we hope is actually going to lead to beneficial outcomes for us. She's very aware of the interrelationship between the two. And although we've seen an improvement in the turnaround time and the support we're getting from Immigration New Zealand, particularly before semester one starts, we still have some further work to do in terms of those applications and visas being processed.

13:53 Speaker 7: So that's all work underway. And I had the good fortune to meet with the new ENZ CEO Amanda Marlou, who is also working behind the scenes to develop an approach that Immigration New Zealand can support us with across the whole pipeline. That's students coming into the schools as well as that pipeline coming into the university.

14:17 Speaker 7: That work continues. We've had a meeting with Minister Retty and I was I'm pleased to have him on campus very early in his appointment in making the announcement about the applied doctoral scheme which is an extra 20 million dollars over a period of time to support those applied doctorates it's a joint program of work of course with other universities but it really is actually quite a significant step towards that application and translation and impact agenda that you're hearing so much about.

14:52 Speaker 7: Minister Retty has been talking to us about his priorities.

14:56 Speaker 7: And I thought it would be useful just to reiterate those in terms of where he's heading.

15:02 Speaker 7: So his four priorities are participation in higher education across the board.

15:09 Speaker 7: And that's one of the areas of interest also that the Office of the Auditor General has alerted us to being interested in that and retention.

15:20 Speaker 7: And so the second of Minister Reti's priorities is retention and completion of students once they're into higher education. And the OAG has signalled it will be doing further work auditing retention and retention across specific cohorts. I needed to mention Māori Pacific and other equity groups, but overall very interested to understand what all the sector is doing in terms of retention and attrition of students.

15:50 Speaker 7: The third area of priorities commercialization. Now you've seen this coming from the Prime Minister in the context of the research organizations, the changes to the CRIs and the changes to Callaghan. And we are working, of course, with Frank and Uni Services and across the board looking at ways in which we can be influential and instrumental in supporting the public research.

16:20 Speaker 7: organizations when they start to merge out of that SSAG. Notwithstanding that, doing a huge amount of footwork, treading the boards around being a comprehensive university and ensuring that arts, humanities, social sciences continues to be supported.

16:42 Speaker 7: The fourth priority that the Minister has is related to our engagement with industry and business.

16:50 Speaker 7: and particularly thinking about that innovation and impact pipeline. As you know, Frank's been doing a huge amount of work in positioning us really well from a research point of view and configuring the support, the Research and Innovation Office to meet that agenda.

17:11 Speaker 7: The work on the UAG continues to be a little bit opaque at the moment. What we are aware of is that by the 30th of April, we should see a report coming out from the government in relation to fiscal recommendations. And this is about the principles being defined and the modelling for future funding models for universities. And there are a range of things that the UAG are looking at, including a ministerial advisory council and supporting some of the work that that they're currently doing through the TEC and looking at ways in which funding might be differentiated in the future.

17:57 Speaker 7: To that point, and closer to home, having met with the TEC last week, and Pamela now has received the planning guidance, it's very clear that the emphasis towards STEM disciplines and to thinking about that differentiated discipline mix across the university is starting to come.

18:20 Speaker 7: come to fruition. And while we don't have the full information to hand about what that will mean for other disciplines, then I think we do know that there is a push for growth by the government and economic growth through science, technology and innovation, of course, engineering. And we are including in that the work that we're doing in medtech and through the ABI and the links to the medical faculty where we've just been informed that we're going to be receiving an additional 25 places to be distributed between ourselves and Otago.

19:02 Speaker 7: So this is all of course huge amount happening every day as you know and we're trying to make sure that we're keeping on top of this in terms of responding but also getting ahead and that's been an important piece of work and so on Wednesday the senior leadership team We met last week to look at our planning date for the next 12 months. And we had some excellent discussions around both the way in which the professional staff structure is starting to shape up. You'll recall that we're doing some work around that linked to that $45 million that we are working to save by the end of the year. And that's now starting to take some shape.

19:50 Speaker 7: in wanting to restructure the executive to have the deans as members of the exec and that's now coming into being quite soon. We've had the first meeting we're working on the terms of reference which will be circulating as part of the committee responsibilities across to the university and within all of that the opportunity to really think about the university's communication and marketing strategy featured on the day as well.

20:20 Speaker 7: the work that Adrian and Andrew and the team are leading across professional staff and the culture and transformation work at the leadership level. All of that is very high level. And of course, the external and the internal environment is very feverish. Not surprisingly, council's aware of some of the challenges we've faced with the external conflicts across a range of areas, including some of the challenges to funding coming through through the US changes to their regulation and funding of US support for scholarships and research. And of course, internally, we've been working through initiatives, including looking at the law and business and economic school proposal, which of course we'll be talking about later, but a range of other initiatives as well.

21:17 Speaker 7: I should say we've had a fantastic start to the in terms of onboarding of students, O-Week, and just generally the atmosphere on campus and having the students around has been really lively and dynamic. And some of that obviously is centred around our new HIWA Recreation Centre, which is not only thriving, but really creating an opportunity for students to have fantastic meeting spaces.

21:48 Speaker 7: and it's great to see that that's the case. I think I'll stop there. There's so much in the report that we could go to, but that's probably a high enough level for now, Chancellor.

22:00 Thank

22:00 Speaker 1: you. Could I see, are there any questions for the Vice-Chancellor on her report?

22:08 Jonathan? Yes,

22:11 Speaker 8: I'm on page three, Don, and it's a little table. And there's a line there that says, Domestic funded. And I just wanted to be clear that I'm not to compare 23,000 to 30,000. It's just sort of the time of year. And so you can sort of ignore it looks like there's sort of a big drop.

22:39 Speaker 8: But I'm assuming because it's February, the data just isn't relevant. So it's apples and oranges. Do you see what I'm saying?

22:48 Speaker 7: And Tim's nodding.

22:51 Speaker 7: We're both in agreement. I mean, if you wanted to

22:54 Speaker 8: have... Yeah.

22:56 Speaker 7: Just wanted to

22:57 Speaker 8: confirm that. Yeah. Good. Thank you.

23:02 Speaker 4: Julia?

23:06 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have a couple of questions. Just clarification and maybe a little bit of a comment. So I'll just ask my questions first and comment and then I'll leave it to you to respond.

23:18 Speaker 4: So I'm looking at page 25 on diligent and I'm just asking for a bit of clarification what we mean about cultural conducting culture diagnostics and developing an organizational culture plan and culture transformation and we also refer to an engagement and listening strategy which I'm assuming refers to the employee surveys that we've been bringing out approximately every five years and just a comment around that I realize that staff provide a cacophony of voices, particularly around controversial issues. But I do think it's really significant when faculty, I'm not just talking about law here, across the university, do make well-reasoned, well-argued submissions into university policy processes that those are given quite a lot of weight. Because of course if we don't feel heard in the those things, enrolling out of staff survey feels a little bit performative.

24:23 Speaker 7: Sure, Julia, thanks for the questions. I'm going to start with your second one first. And I'll invite, and I don't think Andrew is on the Zoom.

24:32 Speaker 7: No.

24:34 Speaker 7: No, but I can comment on the second one first. So on the sentiment surveys and the survey, so in the five years that I've been here, we've done three in five years.

24:47 Speaker 7: So, yes, I think I just want to correct the fact that it's every five years. So what was happening before I arrived is we were doing them every two years and we were engaging an external consultant. And in terms of the external consultant, we had less, we were selecting questions that were available to us and we were able to make some modifications to those.

25:11 Speaker 7: But when I arrived, it was important, I think, because we were during, I mean, things have changed. We're in such an accelerated pace that every two years, things are, it's a long time, actually, in the current context, isn't it? So I suggested that when we did the first one, which was in my second year, because it had been done the year before I arrived, that we thought about doing much more concentrated surveys on a more regular basis.

25:40 Speaker 7: And so we've done two more since then so we've done three and five years. And there's another one planned for later this year so that will actually be four in six years.

25:51 Speaker 7: But it's not about the number I think it's about the quality of the survey as well and what we do with it. So many people will know that when we we've modified and been able to adapt some of the questions to target specific issues that are contemporary in the university at that time.

26:19 Speaker 7: So that's the data is actually looked at not just at the senior leadership team level and the exec level, it's given to the faculty deans and to the directors of the different parts of the university's professional staff.

26:35 Speaker 7: And that level of detail goes all the way down so that they can start to look at some of the things that they're responding to within their specific areas as well as what the themes are across the university. So we've got the high level themes and we've got what's happening in different units and different areas. Now one of the things we spoke about in the meeting on Wednesday last week was Andrew talking through the process and plans for this year's So I think that's really important to get that sort of structure of it not it not being every two years but more frequently and also really much more targeted as well. So that's that's I think the first comment I would like to make now Andrew's not here but Andrew has been leading with us sorry I'm just looking at the I wanted to refer directly to your point here the cultural diagnostics.

27:34 Speaker 7: So Andrew's been leading a piece of work with his team on looking at developing that.

27:42 Speaker 7: So there's a there is a diagnostic piece of work that is done. It's something that comes through both the employer survey and a whole piece of work that then crystallizes into some diagnostics and then developing the organizational culture plan in the context of the future workforce, because of course that's also changing as well Julia.

28:04 Speaker 7: and thinking about, you know, if you're going to have, let me use this example, if you're going to have a workforce that is spending more time working from home, now I'll use that example, I'm pulling it off the top of my head, or engaging more with AI or any of those things, then what sort of culture do you create to build the community and to bond around those various themes in our strategy?

28:33 Speaker 7: and values. And that's the work that is currently just starting to be talked about through the senior leadership team. So I think, as I say, it's early days in that and another survey will help very much with that. And I hope that gives you a bit more flesh on those points. But I'm also happy if you're interested to put this onto the all staff soon, have Andrew talk about it a bit more.

29:06 So

29:07 Speaker 1: we're not coming through Gemma.

29:09 Speaker 3: Yeah. Can you hear me now?

29:11 Yep.

29:12 Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.

29:13 Speaker 3: Just saying thank you for that update Dawn and for that extra explanation. I had a similar question earlier, but I think it could be an interesting topic for an all-stop Zoom.

29:21 Speaker 3: Mine was more of an acknowledgement rather than a question, but really outstanding results with the graduate destination survey. Very affirming for us as a community.

29:31 Speaker 3: to know that all the efforts that staff are making are incurring outcomes for our students. And then also in terms of our EFs, I appreciate this report was written slightly before the start of semester, but to share with our fellow council members that things have landed really favourably and that teams have been working incredibly well together across the university. And I'm just, I'm really proud of our professional staff and the way that they've come together to make this happen. There's been a number of really good gains and they're now in the hands of the teaching and learning environment.

30:02 Speaker 3: and all our pastoral care staff. So just really excited about the year here. It's been a very exciting start.

30:09 Great

30:10 Speaker 7: acknowledgement because a lot of this work goes on, of course, before the semester, a huge amount. And the professional staff really working hard on that. And, you know, people don't just turn up on the first day accidentally. Huge amounts happen there. But also thank you for your acknowledgement about the Graduate Destination Survey. I think what I would like to say in response that is there are some amazing things happening in this institution and across the board and it's really important that we do acknowledge those achievements as well thank you

30:42 great

30:44 Speaker 1: all right well i think the no more questions then i will um move that the vice chancellor's report be noted and i'm going to ask john to second that yes great thank you john um and um i'm going to see um all those in favor of um of noting that report. Right, very good, thank you very much. Anybody against?

31:07 Speaker 1: Right. Okay, so then I'm going to go to the next item is the Finance Committee. Finance Committee minutes. Obviously this is the minutes of Part A. Are there any questions for Rob or Tim or Julian or Cameron on the minutes of Part A?

31:27 Speaker 1: No?

31:28 Speaker 1: Okay, then I'm going to move that those minutes be received.

31:31 Speaker 1: and that Rob seconded that. And all those in favour? Indicate that please. Anybody against?

31:41 Speaker 1: No?

31:44 Speaker 1: Candice, you're not against are you? You're four.

31:47 Speaker 1: Good, right, you're four, thank you. Okay, then I'm going to go to the Audit and Commit, Audit and Risk Committee, the Part A minutes. And I'm going to, there's really any questions on those?

32:01 Speaker 1: I'm going to move that those be received and I'm going to ask Jonathan to second that. Thank you very much Jonathan. All those in favour?

32:12 Speaker 1: Thank you. Then I'm going to go to the Capital Expenditure Committee. This is only part, this is part A and I'm going to move if there are any questions on part A. I'm going to move that those be received and I'll ask Gemma to second those. Thank you very much Gemma.

32:31 Speaker 1: All those in favour? Thank you very much. And then I'll move to the Student Appeals Committee report there. It's the report to Council. And we have with us the current chair and also members of that committee if people have any questions around that report.

32:53 Speaker 1: Are there any questions around that report?

32:57 Speaker 1: No?

32:58 Speaker 1: All good. Thank you very much. So I'm going to move that that be received and I'm going to I ask John to second that. Thank you very much John.

33:05 Speaker 1: I'm then going to move to the report of Senate and I'm going to turn to Dawn if she'd like to speak to the report to Senate and we also have with us Simon Hodaway who is the Acting DVC Education.

33:26 Speaker 1: So Dawn, you first.

33:31 Speaker 7: So we had that first meeting of Senate, as you can see from the papers in March, and the three meaty items on the agenda that I'll speak to and there's obviously the other reports that you see in there, but I'll just talk to these three items and then if you've got questions on the other items that's also fine. And I'm going to ask Simon to chip in as well.

33:58 Speaker 7: So I'll start with what is probably relatively straightforward to deal with, which is that for some time now I'm going actually to start with the item that's in the Senate summary there under C. So this is under C, freedom of expression.

34:18 Speaker 7: And I'm going to start with that because that's probably the straightforward one. What we've been doing as a Senate, as you know, councils have multiple reports on this. We've been working towards the development of a freedom of expression policy and we've been doing that work over a long period of time, five years now, actually before my time, so longer than that. And Sir Peter Hunter led the group. We've also done some further work linking it to academic freedom. And to cut a long story short and not repeat myself, of course, we ended in Senate last year with a policy that we were debating and discussing.

34:59 Speaker 7: And at the same time, the government has determined that it will be working through legislation that will be going through Parliament soon. And so for all universities. And so we've decided that, as you can see from the note, that until the And then to the legislation was available, there was very little point in us doing further work on the creation of our policy in order to make sure that we're aligned with the work that the government is putting together and that legislation when it becomes available.

35:32 Speaker 7: I'm sort of understanding that's imminent but we were told it might be imminent in December and we're in March so I'm not sure what that means but that's work ongoing.

35:45 Speaker 7: Then to the matter of under a consideration of future future faculty arrangements and the recommendations. We have a large Senate minute of this which Council will be referred to as you're aware I've suggested that we have an extraordinary meeting of Council. Public facing in that we can discuss not only the.

36:16 Speaker 7: and the discussion that took place at Senate and the subsequent vote, but also the review committee's report. This was the review committee that reviewed the 793 submissions and made some recommendations and engaged with that group of students and some independent experts and a range of other people to come together to look at those submissions.

36:43 Speaker 7: and that we actually have a separate discussion about this. And I know that, Chancellor, you've agreed to that and that we'll be looking to a separate date to have that in part as a public discussion, given that we were not able to meet the timeline under our standing orders, under the orders to be able to do this in this meeting.

37:11 Speaker 7: So I'm going to just suggest that we put that to the next meeting, which I'm hoping will be quite soon. And then I want to come to B, which was the CFT. Now, Council are very aware that last year we had a meeting of Senate and Council, which we agreed that we would go back to Senate in March and that during that period of time, we would undertake two or three pieces of work that we will report back to Senate on and then through to Council.

37:47 Speaker 7: So since that time I asked Simon Holdaway who is in the Acting DVC E-Roll to convene a group to look at essentially two or three things which he could speak to. One of which of course was related to our transdisciplinary courses, the other was related to Wipe Up a Tow Mater Row And the third thing I asked him to look at actually was to look at what we were doing in Flexi Choice. And so Simon has led that piece of work and he reported that back to Senate. And I'd like to have him speak to that report and provide an update to council. And this is really a progress report because what we've agreed is we would like more time. I've suggested that Simon really work with the faculties on these issues between the Senate meeting that took place on the 3rd of March and the next one which is taking place in April and so there's further work underway and there will be the whole of this year Chancellor as you're aware because that was a commitment that we made and I'd like him to talk to where we've got to but noting this is a progress report rather than you know really asking or seeking counsel to endorse or to review anything in particular because we're coming coming back again, of course, we've got a council meeting in April after the April Senate meeting. So can I hand over to Simon at this point? Yeah,

39:27 Speaker 1: Simon, absolutely. Simon, would you like to speak to the process that you've gone through in the review and the report then to Senate?

39:42 to

39:42 Speaker 9: talk about this. The report that colleagues on Council will see in front of them is indeed a draft report that a group that I convened initially formulated.

39:58 Speaker 9: Matt Graham.

39:58 Speaker 1: Perhaps, I mean obviously in the main papers what the Council members are seeing is the summary of what happened in the meeting. The report that Simon's referring to is in the resource centre.

40:13 Speaker 1: Okay,

40:13 Speaker 9: thanks for that.

40:16 Speaker 9: So we met initially a group that had the Associate Dean's Academic, Dean's PVC Education, PVC Māori, Teaching and Learning Director, Audrey Niu there as well.

40:31 Speaker 9: And we met to consider those three areas indeed that the Vice-Chancellor outlined.

40:38 Speaker 9: We wrote out some recommendations that we then took to two different groups, certainly to the Senate meeting, as the Vice-Chancellor indicated. But before that, we had the opportunity, I had the opportunity to attend all six faculties that, thanks very much to their deans, organised special meetings, faculty meetings, half of these were online and half of them were live. And I took the six recommendations to those meetings, to really get feedback from colleagues directly, which indeed we did. We also had the opportunity to get further feedback after I talked to each of those meetings. A number of the faculties had subsequent discussions. Bridget and I both received a number of email correspondence. And indeed, we got feedback in the Senate meeting. Now, we've taken all that feedback together. We've had an initial re -meeting of the review group that happened the Friday week before last. We accumulate really working through all that feedback and making a series of suggestions. I guess these, the basis for these suggestions are summarised in the recommendations and really looking at I guess the three areas the Vice-Chancellor pointed out.

42:28 Speaker 9: the TDA course experience in working in groups from multiple disciplinary perspectives.

42:43 Speaker 9: Really addressing those sorts of problems that they will be asked to work with in their future careers. How successful are these?

42:54 Speaker 9: Also looking at the distribution of students as part of running WTR and the TD courses. How are these students distributed across the faculties and are there any issues that the university needs to look at in terms of budgets, that sort of thing. And as Dawn points out, also looking at the flexi-choice options, really I guess looking at the breadth of education, how are we introducing students to those critical areas like indeed critical thinking with the ability to take courses from a variety of areas. So As the Vice-Chancellor pointed out, this is a work in progress. We've had a lot of feedback. It was really useful, I found, going to the faculty meetings, talking to colleagues directly. We got a lot of really useful feedback. I tried in all of those conversations with the assistants of the deans in each case to give colleagues the maximum opportunity to ask me questions and indeed provide feedback. There were no It was all just conversation. And I think that was turned out to be a really useful mechanism.

44:17 Speaker 9: The deans at the Senate meeting summarised the feedback they'd received from each of the six faculties. So each dean presented at Senate. And as I say, our next task is really to collate all that information, go back and look at the recommendations and make adjustments.

44:38 Speaker 9: I just wanted to kind of chance if I could just right at the end. Council members will be aware that there's a lot of information flowing around in the media and a lot of this is I guess quite disturbing because it is false, really is false information. I listened to the news 2ZB talk show early Friday morning and the presenter had really no idea about any of the content of the WTO.

45:08 Speaker 9: of course, indeed the presenter had no idea what the name meant, which was quite surprising. Fortunately, Gabriel, our AUSA president, replied and very elegantly pointed out to the presenter that that individual really had no idea about what they were talking about and then really laid out the basis for the W2. Of course, council members will be really aware. There's a really important set of courses, indeed there are five, for the different faculties. That fulfil a really important need for our students. Introducing a COVID generation, largely, of school leavers to the university, to the different areas of the university in terms of the way we teach, the way we research. And providing an introduction to the context in which we sit.

46:06 Speaker 9: That is, we talk about and this is of course as colleagues will know better than I really essential and a large number of professions into which our students will work you know it's required an education for instance engineering in the clinical schools in FMHS so the courses we spent a lot of time working on these courses designing them we've piloted one WTR course in science with spectacular outcomes that I think they're around 170 students they really really enjoyed it and indeed we're seeing enrollments into all five of them this this year which has shown that students enrolling in all these courses so I just think we need to be aware that there is a lot of disinformation out there which is pretty disheartening I guess but perhaps in this in this modern world maybe not surprising and to do what we do really well, which is provide a range of really excellent courses.

47:15 Speaker 9: Thank you.

47:15 Thank

47:16 Speaker 1: you very much, Simon. Dawn.

47:18 Sorry,

47:19 Speaker 7: could I just ask a couple of other comments? Because when I asked for the extra work on FlexiChoice, I was concerned about critical thinking, given the conversations we've been having and the COVID generation. And Simon, one of the key issues that gets talked about in the media and across the the board is the course being compulsory and a treaty course. Could you just say a little bit about the work you've been doing on that? Because I think that's important for council to hear as well. Because those conversations and we're talking about what the expectation is and where this sits in the broader context.

48:03 Thanks

48:03 Speaker 9: Dawn. Yeah I think that maybe the word compulsory has been a bit overused in connection, you know, these courses are part of the structure of the degree and we thought really carefully about this. I've tried to use the word required rather than compulsory. You know, are courses required in all our degrees? Of course they, because all our degrees are structured in the way that we introduce students to necessary sets of knowledge and indeed build on these throughout the degree.

48:39 Speaker 9: So I guess, you know, in that sense, maybe these courses can be thought of as compulsory, but in that in this in the notion of a structured degree, I don't see them as any more compulsory than any other course. So again, I prefer that kind of required approach. I'll start so in terms of, you know, the breadth of education, I think that's a really important point that we need as colleagues to think and indeed that was the intention of elements of the transdisciplinary futures courses. What we've done is to suggest that we keep a number of those courses continuing in a pilot form for this year and indeed next year. Go back and re-look at the general education courses, a curated set of those that indeed injuries some of the breadth issues that we know our students are going to need to come to grips with in their futures. You pointed out a couple of times in this meeting the significance of AI and the way that artificial intelligence generative AI in particular is going to have an impact on our students moving forward. And indeed we can see elements of that happening already in the workforce in a number of different areas. So having that breadth Ability in critical thinking, in ability in querying, Gen AI, for example, going to be key aspects of the future of our students. So we need to look at the range of courses that we offer in all disciplines to fulfill those needs. I was on a high school board recently and I queried the headmaster about whether AI was part of the strategy of that high school.

50:38 Speaker 9: And indeed the headmaster said, oh, we don't really need it. There was a young student on the board who immediately piped up, excuse me, headmaster, all of the boys are using AI to help with education. That is the reality that our students are already in. And we need to think very carefully about breadth components in our degrees, in all of our degrees that reflect that reality.

51:08 True. Right.

51:10 Speaker 1: Yeah, it might help us to understand. So if, as you say, there's been a lot of in the press about the WTR course being compulsory. And as you say, you prefer to think of it as a requirement in the same way that I mean, when I do my law degree, it was a requirement that you did criminal law and torts and all those sorts of things, which I believe are still requirements. But can I ask you, if somebody doesn't do this course in their first year, does this have, does this stop them from progressing into the second year? I mean, what's the, you know, are they, does, I mean, I understand they won't have the skill set, we are concerned they won't have the skill set, but isn't it true that they could not do the course, but they could still, and they would still be able to progress?

52:04 So

52:04 Speaker 9: I guess we do need to look at the intention of this course, as you say, very This course is intended for beginning students, gives them a hot basis of abilities that will really lend, give them a much better chance of progressing through our degree. So we really want them to take that.

52:28 Speaker 9: Now I imagine there's going to be some instances where that's not going to happen and we will see a very small number of students, a variety of reasons, particular reasons end up taking the course in a second year. So it's not the intention to block students. If we kind of reverse the argument, I guess.

52:51 Speaker 9: The intention is for students to gain skill sets that will enable them to succeed in university. And of course, that's really what we want to see happen for a whole range of reasons. So I do.

53:08 Speaker 1: I appreciate you'd like them to do it but yeah yeah I

53:11 think

53:13 Speaker 7: the point is that you know some people actually will join the university in their second year and they won't have access to this course and they'll progress and so I think you know what Simon's saying is that it's like any of these things we of course we would prefer them to learn about critical thinking and how to study and how to be in cohorts and all of those things but if there's going to be people that don't do it for whatever reason and that's not going to block that progression.

53:41 Speaker 5: So sorry, to clarify, I mean, because I'm sorry, Simon, maybe I misunderstood you. When you talk about required versus compulsory, I think you're being, I would say some people might say you've been cute. It's the same thing. So is it absolutely clear that as a student, and this is what the controversy is, that people can't, I appreciate the intent behind the course may well be well intended.

54:06 Speaker 5: But as I understand the controversy is that when people get to the point that they come to university they want to be free to choose what courses they undertake.

54:15 Speaker 5: So if I decide I do not want to do this course and I want to complete my law degree, can I complete my law degree without having done this course?

54:25 If

54:26 Speaker 9: you come in as a beginning student, no you can't, we do want you to do

54:30 Speaker 2: that.

54:31 Speaker 5: Well I think that is the area that remains controversial Cecilia and controversial.

54:39 Yeah,

54:40 Speaker 1: no, I appreciate that, Cathy. Dawn, could you answer?

54:44 Speaker 1: I think if you pick

54:45 Speaker 7: law, which is what you've done, one of the things that we're also doing is complying with what the professions are asking us to do. Simon, you better just talk to me about this. But this is, you know, that's an important part also. So if we're building in with the professions, the competencies and the skills that they're asking us to build in, then there are some areas. Engineering is the same. I'm pulling it off here somewhere, Simon. Engineering particularly has the same thing with the engineering fraternity and their professional accrediting body. Do you want to just, maybe you just have a comment about that?

55:30 Yeah,

55:31 Speaker 9: certainly. So these, the The Waipapa Tamaturo course forces, because there are five of them, and indeed there's a comment that law does not have one, that is true. We expect students that enter into the second year of law will have picked up a Waipapa Tamaturo course from one of the other five areas.

55:54 Speaker 9: Many law students do dual majors, dual degrees, we expect them to pick up the course most logically in the faculty that they're doing their other major in.

56:11 Speaker 9: But we do ask that students complete this course, as the Vice-Chancellor puts out, for a number of reasons.

56:19 Speaker 9: One of these reasons is that we've designed these courses to introduce students to the University. But in addition, these courses provide basic knowledge of te te riti te wa Māori that is a requirement in many professional degrees. Engineering, Vice Chancellor, you pointed out is indeed one of them. Education, nursing that you would know better than I. Undoubtedly there are other medical professional courses. So,

56:47 Speaker 1: you know, we... And Julia is pointing out in the chat that it is a requirement of the Council for Legal Education. Exactly.

56:55 Speaker 10: I was

56:57 Speaker 5: using law as an example, right? I was using law as an example, so...

57:01 And

57:01 Speaker 1: I appreciate that, Cathy.

57:04 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. But so if it's not right, so can we just be clear, if it's not a requirement of the particular degree, you know, so let's say I'm doing an arts degree and I choose not to do this course, I thought I could, I can do, and I will still have, there'll be other requirements I have to have, right, a gen ed requirement or whatever, But can I fill those requirements other ways and still get my degree?

57:38 Speaker 9: You will need to do the Waipapa Tamaturo course. You will need also to do a TD or Gen Ed course and we are for this year and for next year flexing that requirement in the sense that you have to do one or the other. But you know you will also have to do 120 points in the third year to get your major MS TOO:

58:04 Speaker 1: We do appreciate that. We just wanted to clarify that. Okay. So, yeah, so I think we've got the answer to your question, Cathy, right now. Whaa, do you have a question?

58:19 MR TOOME: Yeah,

58:20 Speaker 2: and it's just regarding Waipa Putaumata Rau. So it's just confirming again, you know, te hao Māori and Tikang is only one component in that Waipa Putaumata Rau course. And just, Again, to confirm and for those watching our proceedings, it's in regards to sort of Waipa Patoumata Ro replacing general education and in part solving some of our, you know, allocating funding, you know, that a student might have tied to their specific course. That was my understanding from a...

58:55 Speaker 2: So, for instance, a med student might have to do Waipa Patoumata Ro, but they might do Waipa Patoumata Ro in arts.

59:04 Speaker 2: and then a portion of their funding might go to the Arts Faculty, for example. That's my understanding as well. Greg?

59:13 Speaker 9: So we would expect a student in Faculty of Medical and Health Sciences to do the Waipapa Tamaturo course in the Faculty of Medical and Health Sciences. There's a bunch of reasons for that, right? Obviously that course has been designed by colleagues from that faculty to introduce students to the nature of teaching and research in that faculty. And each of the Waipapa Tamaturo courses has some common content, but is slanted unsurprisingly to the nature of research and teaching in each of the five faculties. Laura is the exception as we've explained.

01:00:04 Speaker 1: Are there any other questions? And obviously, look, this is a review that's ongoing and I think that this is a point that can continue to be looked at. Julia, you had a question?

01:00:16 Yes,

01:00:17 Speaker 4: sorry. More just a little comment and a bit of a plea. So some of the staff that were putting together, put quite a lot of work into rolling out the next transdisciplinary tranche of courses have been told that We didn't financially model those initiatives and we now realise we can't afford them. And so it's really a plea when we do blue skies thinking, when we do strategic planning, could we do the financial modelling very early on?

01:00:49 Speaker 9: Yes, that's absolutely a good comment and indeed understanding the modelling is critical. I would just point out to colleagues and again, Council Members the whole curriculum framework transformation program was started three or four years ago. And our financial position and indeed the country's financial position has shifted quite substantially. So these models need to be dynamic. And indeed, with the help of my colleague Pamela Moss, that's exactly what we've done moving forward.

01:01:34 Speaker 11: And

01:01:34 Speaker 9: I've talked to the colleagues involved in transdisciplinary courses.

01:01:39 Speaker 9: I've talked directly to the course directors on some of the courses that will be affected by the pause that we have while we understand the distribution of students across the faculties a little bit better in those transdisciplinary course areas and indeed understand how we could develop a curated set of general education courses.

01:02:04 Speaker 9: is really, really good. We just need to perhaps slow things down a little bit to give ourselves a chance to rebalance, recognising absolutely, and again as council members will know better than I, the difficulties that we face, the challenges I guess I should call them, that we face coming from current government funding levels. Not only that, in

01:02:30 the

01:02:31 Speaker 10: media this morning was David Seymour, was expressing his disappointment at Auckland University for not complying with the government's degree that these courses that we are supposed to be making people do, he needs to change the council of this place. Did you see that?

01:03:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've all seen it. Yeah. But I think that is a misunderstanding of how small a portion the tititi, the talmar part of it is. Anyway, we're not going to change David Seymour's views right there.

01:03:24 Can

01:03:25 Speaker 7: I just go back to Julia's question? Because I do want to flag up with I was very aware then that there was some work further work that needed to be done and understood because let's be honest this is you know there's no doubt that our students need access to transdisciplinary opportunities that that there's no doubt about that how that's done and how that's led and managed and taught is done in different ways in different institutions. And, and I think you know we had some people who have very and great enthusiasm, great ideas and ways of thinking about this.

01:04:13 Speaker 7: But for all all the reasons you just pointed out whenever we develop programs across the university, there has to be a business case that it's not just about the academic business case.

01:04:24 Speaker 7: And so I think it's right to point that out and I think it's a really important comment you've made and I just want to underline it because it's not just about TD it's about a range of things that we could engage in but not necessarily think about the you know the importance of not just financial modelling but infrastructure and capability and workforce planning so thank you for that comment.

01:04:51 Speaker 1: Okay, all right. I'm conscious of time here. I think we've, are there any other questions in respect of the matters of the report on the Senate meeting?

01:05:04 Speaker 1: Okay, if there are no other matters, I'm then going to move that the recommendation in part A of the report, so this is the recommendations in part A which relate to the reviews, that's the thing that they be adopted.

01:05:21 Speaker 1: and that those in Part B and C be noted.

01:05:27 Speaker 1: All right. I'm going to move that and I'm going to ask Candice if she will second that. Thank you very much, Candice. And all in favour, right, so adoption and noting. Thank you very much. Anybody against? Good. Thank you very much.

01:05:46 Speaker 1: Okay.

01:05:48 Speaker 1: Now, There then I have, with respect to correspondence referred by the Chancellor, I've explained that all of the correspondence that we have received in respect of the proposed combination of the Faculty of Law and the Faculty of Business Economics will be made available to the Council in the Resource Centre. Now we're going to the other matters for decision and noting and we're going now to the to the seal. There are one document in which the seal has been affixed since our last meeting, which is the Deed of Novation and Variation Information Sharing Agreement for the Growing Up in New Zealand study, which is between UniServices, University of Auckland and the Ministry of Education, which I'm excited about, because that means that they're funding, that they're going on, right? So just wonderful.

01:06:50 Speaker 1: So I'm going to move that that be noted. If there's any discussion with that. Okay. And I'll ask Julia and Otnene to second that. Thank you very much. And we will then, all those in favour. Nobody against. Thank you. Now I'm moving to the program limitations. And now this is a little confusing, right, because we are now in 2025.

01:07:19 Speaker 1: What we are actually doing is we are noting the use of the provost subdelegation powers that were used in 2024 to approve an update to the program limitations of these two programs for 2025. We no longer have a provost but this was what she did when she was the provost and so we need to note it.

01:07:44 Speaker 1: Are there any questions around these programs?

01:07:49 Speaker 1: the changes to the program limitations.

01:07:54 Speaker 1: All good.

01:07:55 Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm going to move that council note the use of the proper subdelegation powers to approve the update to these program limitations and I'm going to ask Dawn to second that.

01:08:10 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Dawn.

01:08:11 Speaker 1: All those in favour?

01:08:13 Speaker 1: Anybody against?

01:08:16 Speaker 1: Good.

01:08:16 Speaker 1: Thank you very much.

01:08:18 Speaker 1: Now, we now have the MOU, the memorandum standing between the University of Auckland and the foundations. And you'll see there's a cover memo there from Tim about it. I think we can take this as read. I mean, effectively, as he's explaining, this is around the university providing administrative support to the foundation, which obviously does a lot of good for the university. Are there any questions for Tim around the MOU?

01:08:48 Speaker 1: with the Foundation?

01:08:51 Speaker 1: No?

01:08:52 Speaker 1: All good? Well then I will move that the Council approve the adoption of the refreshed MOU with the University Foundations and delegate to the Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor to execute the MOU. And, Fah, could I ask you to second that please?

01:09:10 Speaker 1: Thank you very much.

01:09:12 Speaker 1: All those in favour?

01:09:15 Speaker 1: Anybody against?

01:09:18 Speaker 1: Thank you. Okay, so then we're going to go to the Senate and Committee Election Statute. And you will see that this is a proposed update to the statute that reflects the changes made to the Senate membership which were approved by Council at its meeting in December. And these really only relate to the sub-professorial staff and were made as a result of changing the the change in the faculties, I believe is what came with this. Now, Julia, do you have a question on this?

01:09:56 Speaker 1: I have a comment that most

01:09:59 Speaker 4: of that is true. So the change to sub-professorial membership on Senate and the updates to legislation. But I think there might have been an error in that we also remove, so I'm looking at page 57 of diligent, we remove the wording about Senate that includes all the professors as well as representatives of sub-professorial staff, professional staff and students and that isn't an update and hasn't been through Senate so it's really not something that we can vote on without the advice of Senate so my suggestion would just be to put those words back in and then it is an update.

01:10:45 Speaker 7: Can I just clarify, this was raised with me as well last week. Adrian, do you want, and I know we've spoken with Wendy about it, do you want to just advise?

01:10:56 Well

01:10:57 Speaker 6: I think the change to the definition of Senate is still true, it just now reflects the change in the Education Act which moves it to Schedule 11 rather than the previous reference. It doesn't make any Indication here at all about the membership of Senate. The membership of Senate is in the terms of reference of Senate and we haven't made any changes to the membership of Senate other than the change that

01:11:27 Speaker 4: was... This is not an update for the legislation because those words weren't in the previous legislation either. I just think we should run that through Senate. So

01:11:34 Speaker 1: just a minute Julia, we're referring to the 2020 Act, you want us to go, you're suggesting that we go back to referring to the Education Act 1989?

01:11:45 Speaker 4: is just to reflect changes in the act. I'm saying there wasn't, this wasn't. There's a new act.

01:11:52 Speaker 4: Yes, I know. Right.

01:11:53 Speaker 4: But the old act doesn't have these words either. They were in the statute. So we're taking them out. We're doing something that's more than updating.

01:12:02 Speaker 5: But does it matter, Julia? I'm, I mean, I'm looking at it. Just in the definitions. It doesn't matter because it's the

01:12:08 Speaker 4: only council statute that refers to the senators including all the professors.

01:12:15 Speaker 5: It just defines it as the committee established by council under the act. I don't think it's a big deal.

01:12:22 Speaker 5: And

01:12:23 Speaker 4: it includes all the professors.

01:12:25 That

01:12:25 Speaker 5: is a big deal. That's part of our history at this

01:12:30 Speaker 4: place. And if we were going to change that

01:12:31 Speaker 1: definition...

01:12:32 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Julia. Julia.

01:12:33 Speaker 6: We're not changing that.

01:12:35 Speaker 1: We're not trying to change it. We're not trying to change it that the professors are on Senate. We're not trying to change that.

01:12:43 Speaker 1: But

01:12:43 Speaker 4: you're removing it from the statute without the advice of Senate. I would just suggest putting those words back in. That's neutral and then it just is an update.

01:12:54 So

01:12:54 Speaker 7: it's an update of the elections statute.

01:12:58 Speaker 4: The only statute in which we define Senate as including all academics in this, sorry, all professors in this university.

01:13:13 Speaker 6: of reference for Senate.

01:13:15 Speaker 4: Terms of reference isn't a statute.

01:13:18 So

01:13:19 Speaker 7: I'm just confused because I thought this was about the election of sub-professorial staff, not professorial staff.

01:13:27 It

01:13:28 Speaker 6: is. And

01:13:28 Speaker 4: that went through Senate. There's no problem with that. I'm looking at the last two words and just saying the last two lines of the document on page 57, the words, it includes all the professors as well as representatives of sub-professorial staff.

01:13:43 Speaker 4: staff, professional staff and students. Just keeping that rather than knocking it out.

01:13:50 Speaker 4: On page 57 of Diligent. I

01:13:57 Speaker 6: don't see it makes any difference. I don't think it needs to be there, but happy to have it there.

01:14:02 Okay.

01:14:02 Speaker 1: Okay, so why don't you then, Julia, that you move that an amendment may be made to add back in.

01:14:12 Speaker 1: It includes all the professors as well as etc.

01:14:18 Speaker 1: And then, okay, and on that basis, I'll move that

01:14:23 Speaker 11: council

01:14:25 Speaker 1: approve.

01:14:26 Speaker 1: Sorry, Dawn?

01:14:28 Oh,

01:14:28 Speaker 7: there's a whole paragraph there.

01:14:29 Speaker 7: It's not just about professors.

01:14:31 Speaker 7: So I'm just asking.

01:14:32 Speaker 7: No, no, no,

01:14:33 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying.

01:14:33 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm going to go.

01:14:35 Speaker 1: It includes all the professors as well as representatives of sub-profissorial staff, professional staff and students.

01:14:41 Speaker 1: I'm going to add that language into after 2020 on page 57 right and then the rest of it is

01:14:51 Speaker 4: completely innocuous because that's what's been through Senate and signed off by council so it is just an update

01:14:56 okay

01:14:58 Speaker 1: so and on that basis I'll move that council approve the update and Julia will you second that yes so okay all those in

01:15:09 favor Anybody

01:15:12 Speaker 1: against? Right. Good. Okay. We have no elections. Is there any general business that anybody wishes to bring to part A of the meeting?

01:15:25 Speaker 1: Okay.

01:15:26 Speaker 1: All good. Okay. Is anybody requesting a leave of absence for the meeting of the 28th of April?

01:15:35 Speaker 1: Okay.

01:15:36 Speaker 1: If you do need a leave of absence, perhaps if you could just notify Wendy of the So now I'm going to move that the public be excluded from part B of this meeting and as a result